Curse

shardfenix · Dec 28, 2006, 02:02 AM // 02:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gimme Money Plzkthx

Nothings wrong with the economy, stick to PvP or go PvE and actually find out what the economy is like, shard.

Nothing wrong with the economy? It seems to me like you need to go pve and find out whats wrong with it. If you had been playing for more than 2 months, you'd know that every trader item was worth at least double its cost back in the day, and items like celestial sigils, sup vigor, and sup absorption rank up to 70k-100k a piece. Sigils are now 6k a piece, and sup absorb is worth 100g. A degrade of 99.9% on a single item means something is very broken about the economy.

I don't pvp much anymore, kthx. Balance in PvP is sucking up to its knees right now.

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Dec 28, 2006, 02:23 AM // 02:23

Sigils is broken, I'll admit that. Superior absorption prices were ridiculous. Superior vigor is a little less than half what it was. That is three items. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/macroeconomics

leprekan · Dec 28, 2006, 02:45 AM // 02:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gimme Money Plzkthx

Sigils is broken, I'll admit that. Superior absorption prices were ridiculous. Superior vigor is a little less than half what it was. That is three items. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/macroeconomics

Those that have played since start know that all three of those items used to sell for OVER 100k. Anet has done a damn fine job of killing the middle class of guild wars. Not sour grapes here .. I made my money long ago.

No offense but MANY of us paid those "ridiculous" prices for those items and lived to tell. Funny thing is that both my sets of war armor have runes from the 100k days guess I should demand a refund. People had to work for armor then now it is considered a right. Problem with gw is everyone wants it all now and easy .. but like in the real world when it happens things lose value fast.

Malice Black · Dec 28, 2006, 11:26 AM // 11:26

The days when sup asorb were 100k were good days for the rich. GW is now better for the average gamer...and to be fair this game was aimed at the casual gamer market to begin with.

Don't like he way the game is going?? do what I'm doing and get another game.

cloudbunny · Dec 28, 2006, 01:04 PM // 13:04

I'm amazed by all these threads about "broken" economy.
What do you really expect?
Even the World economy is very far from being a balanced working system.

GW is a game with a very simplified economical concept, where we also have 1000's of creative people trying to abuse the system from inside and outside (via ebay) for maximum personal benefit. You can of course argue that that makes it very much like a real economy

.

To make an economy system for a game, that nicely balance supply and demand and that also is resistant to any form for abuse is probably impossible. There are also many different player interests to take into account.

(list just put together for fun...):
* Power farmers, who want very high and stable prices on rare farmable items.
* Power traders, who want high, but also fluctuating, prices to get maximum profit.
* Low end traders, who want fluctuating prices on cheap items like common materials.
* Old rich player, who wishes to stay as an "aristocratic" class unreachable for new players.
* New players, who want everything cheap, at least things that matter gamewise.
* Regular players, who want a few shiny (but obtainable) items that are worth working for.
* Normal farmers, who want high stable prices on not-so-rare items.
* Equalists, who want everyone to have access to everything (independent of time spent in game).
* Gold sellers, who want gold to "be worth something" to get enough buyers.
* Power Posers, that want the most expensive stuff, no matter what.
* Nostalgics, who want anything to be as it was when they started to play.
* Anet, who of course want as many as possible to like the game.

I bet you can't make a system where not several of these groups will complain...

Regards,
Cloudbunny

Iuris · Dec 28, 2006, 01:33 PM // 13:33

Am I the only one that considers an economy where every item is available to everyone subject to a day or two of work at gaining money a good economy?

After all, are not the above mentioned tulips or the Tokio real estates of a few years back a sign of problems with the economy?

ignis · Dec 28, 2006, 02:38 PM // 14:38

I liked it better back then. when superior runes actually were superior and not everyone could get them. back then playing and farming was actually rewarding. and now, 18 months and 3 campaigns later I have everything I ever wanted in GW. good items, a lot of gold, titles, etc, etc. it's no longer fun to play

jackie · Dec 28, 2006, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Trading is one important dimension of a good roleplaying game and should be as important aspect in GW as for example questing or pvp'ing.

GW will soon have one dimension less if this kind of ''make everything available right now and for free'' mentality continues.

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Dec 28, 2006, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iuris

Am I the only one that considers an economy where every item is available to everyone subject to a day or two of work at gaining money a good economy?

After all, are not the above mentioned tulips or the Tokio real estates of a few years back a sign of problems with the economy?

No, I believe that would be called a bad economy. The USSR tried something along those lines and look where it got them. Capitalistic societies (which is most definitely GW) have the best economy.

leprekan · Dec 28, 2006, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Admins Bane

The days when sup asorb were 100k were good days for the rich. GW is now better for the average gamer...and to be fair this game was aimed at the casual gamer market to begin with.

Don't like he way the game is going?? do what I'm doing and get another game.

Actually you are wrong. Those days were good for people wanting to make money not just those that had it. If you have millions you would rather spend 200 gold for a sup absorb not 100k plus. Sure the rich will get richer in that system BUT the average Joe had a chance to apply themselves and join their ranks.Now you have people able to get almost anything for next to nothing. Which is great right? Till they need to buy armor and cap sigs/skills or dare I say a title like treasure hunter. Where does that money come from now? Unless a stock holder in Anet .. please don't spew their doctrine on how they want to make money. It is laughable to say that an adventure game is aimed at a casual gamer ... the game isn't but they sure as hell are happy when people pay for it and don't use their bandwidth.

Guru favorite or not you shouldn't have thrown in that go play wow line.

The Ernada · Dec 28, 2006, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Look at these people who think that their self worth comes from being able to afford ridiculous prices on such items such as sigils, superior vigor and absorption runes. And look at them getting angry that the average person can afford them now. It's both laughable and maddening to see that attitude.

And for crying out loud, things arent "free" Stop using ridiculous exaggerations to try to make a point. Things are cheaper, not free. You still have to work to get them. But now, people don't have to spend idiotic amounts of time just to afford a rune.

Ansgar Two Hand · Dec 28, 2006, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Discussions on economics will always run into the same problem: most people don't have a clue when it comes to basic economic theory and principles.

In my opinion, one of the best things about GW is that a *very* casual gamer can play through it without being put at a severe functional disadvantage in PvE. Collector weapons and armor and dropped items can carry you through the game, even with the rampant inflation we have now.

However, if you want a specific weapon skin or mod or armor, you're going to have to work for it. You don't really "need" those things, but they need to give more rabid gamers something to work towards. This is the point of 15k armor and FoW armor - to suck up money from people who don't seem to have anything better to do than play GW. Otherwise, even more of that money would be spent on weapons and mods, driving up inflation and driving away new gamers.

Which brings us to what I see as the biggest problem for the GW economy - ebay gold, etc. It, too, drives up prices, and much faster than legitimately wealthy high level players ever could.

I recall my shock, as a noob, upon coming through from pre-searing and finding people advertising weapons for 50K. I had never had so much as 25g in my little noob hands.

I don't see this as a fatal flaw , but plenty of people certainly find it to be annoying. GW is experiencing the sort of problems you'd have if anyone could just start printing their own money in the real world; gold farmers go out and kill things and essentially "make" new gold, and introduce it into the GW economy through ebay and such. This is what makes gold farming possible and prevents any decent amount of control over the GW economy.

Perhaps the threshold at which an account can be suspected of botting can be lowered, and a window can pop up with the sort of composite image they use to screen registrations for forums (including this one), and the player has a certain time limit to type the text and numbers into a field and click a button. Bots will not be able to handle this, and then the account can be suspended for a time. Repeat incidents could earn a permanent ban. This might be able to take a large bite out of the gold farming market.

leprekan · Dec 28, 2006, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ansgar Two Hand

Discussions on economics will always run into the same problem: most people don't have a clue when it comes to basic economic theory and principles.

In my opinion, one of the best things about GW is that a *very* casual gamer can play through it without being put at a severe functional disadvantage in PvE. Collector weapons and armor and dropped items can carry you through the game, even with the rampant inflation we have now.

However, if you want a specific weapon skin or mod or armor, you're going to have to work for it. You don't really "need" those things, but they need to give more rabid gamers something to work towards. This is the point of 15k armor and FoW armor - to suck up money from people who don't seem to have anything better to do than play GW. Otherwise, even more of that money would be spent on weapons and mods, driving up inflation and driving away new gamers.

Which brings us to what I see as the biggest problem for the GW economy - ebay gold, etc. It, too, drives up prices, and much faster than legitimately wealthy high level players ever could.

I recall my shock, as a noob, upon coming through from pre-searing and finding people advertising weapons for 50K. I had never had so much as 25g in my little noob hands.

I don't see this as a fatal flaw , but plenty of people certainly find it to be annoying. GW is experiencing the sort of problems you'd have if anyone could just start printing their own money in the real world; gold farmers go out and kill things and essentially "make" new gold, and introduce it into the GW economy through ebay and such. This is what makes gold farming possible and prevents any decent amount of control over the GW economy.

Perhaps the threshold at which an account can be suspected of botting can be lowered, and a window can pop up with the sort of composite image they use to screen registrations for forums (including this one), and the player has a certain time limit to type the text and numbers into a field and click a button. Bots will not be able to handle this, and then the account can be suspended for a time. Repeat incidents could earn a permanent ban. This might be able to take a large bite out of the gold farming market.

Anyone posting about Ebay gold killing the economy should be made to spend a few months in lions arch. Those "gold farmers" are not making the bulk of that gold from coin drops. They are selling items to the gw public for gw gold. This drives prices DOWN because they flood the market with items to meet quotas. Those "bots" are sweatshop workers in developing countries. Want to get rid of them? Then solve world hunger and poverty ... or they are not going anywhere. I am not trying to sound like I want the "Chinese farmers" but I am bright enough to see they are not leaving (they are in every game like this) and only drive prices down for that "casual gamer". The gamer that buys the Ebay gold is almost always a self correcting problem ... they get all they want too fast and grow bored and move on. Many of the nerfs from Anet have been courtesy of their Jihad against the "Chinese farmer" all suffer because a company is miffed someone is making money off their product.

Orphan Anthem · Dec 28, 2006, 07:54 PM // 19:54

Personally i think the introduction of Green Items was both a good and a bad thing. It caused demand for the expensive hard to find items to go down but also created an opening for less experianced players to obtain the stats they desire without farming for 2 months for it. No one is to blame i ts simple economics. Now if Guildwars decides to STOP offering skin X or green X those people wont be complaining. But aslong as there is a stedy suply of an item prices will go down.

crimsonfilms · Dec 28, 2006, 07:54 PM // 19:54

All I can I say, people crying about not able to sell some trivial rune (Absor) for 100K got what they deserved and should have seen it coming.

The economy is fine and trying to justify it as being broken for the 'middle class' (whatever that means in a MMO) is delussional, disengenious and motivated by greed.

Bastian · Dec 28, 2006, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

The only thing wrong with the economy is that Anet keeps adding easier ways to make gold, but removes the gold sinks.

So you end up with more gold and less ways to spend it.

But with more gold, people buy more items and prices inflate. So its a never ending circle and it will always get worse.

An example is more quests giving gold, but then they give away things like salvage and indentification kits for free using commendations.

Items which would have cost up to 1 or 2k at one time.

We need more gold inks to remove gold from the economy. It has nothing to do with the availablity of greens and rare items and skins and dyes.

Heroes, in my opinion, are a huge gold sink. I agree with your logic, but I think there are gold sinks in place already.

Ansgar Two Hand · Dec 28, 2006, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by leprekan

Anyone posting about Ebay gold killing the economy should be made to spend a few months in lions arch. Those "gold farmers" are not making the bulk of that gold from coin drops. They are selling items to the gw public for gw gold. This drives prices DOWN because they flood the market with items to meet quotas. Those "bots" are sweatshop workers in developing countries. Want to get rid of them? Then solve world hunger and poverty ... or they are not going anywhere. I am not trying to sound like I want the "Chinese farmers" but I am bright enough to see they are not leaving (they are in every game like this) and only drive prices down for that "casual gamer". The gamer that buys the Ebay gold is almost always a self correcting problem ... they get all they want too fast and grow bored and move on. Many of the nerfs from Anet have been courtesy of their Jihad against the "Chinese farmer" all suffer because a company is miffed someone is making money off their product.

What exactly are they flooding the market with? Runes and other trader items, yes, can lower prices by providing a larger supply. However, the quotas they are meeting, they're in gold, right? And this gold goes to...?

I agree that players who buy 2 sets of black FoW armor on daddy's credit card tend to lose interest and leave. However, there will be a certain number of them in the game at any given point, and it only takes a very small number of them, as a percentage of the overall GW population, to drive up prices on some items. Most of those items we don't "need", but it's still annoying.

The problem with bots, or with "Chinese farmers" (I personally don't have a problem with the notion of gold farming, just with some of its unfortunate effects in-game), is again that without any sort of decent control of the money supply, you're going to get rampant inflation on items that people want and whose price is fluid.

In other words, they exacerbate a problem inherent in the game. We'd have inflation anyways even without ebay gold, just from regular players who farm or even just play relentlessly. Think what would happen to the real world economy if you could just walk outside, beat your neighbor's dog over the head with a shovel, and have a $100 bill appear.

(1) You'd go shovel more dogs (and other people would probably do so, too)

(2) You'd get inflation as the "new" money went into the economy

This whole issue is further clouded (just like real economics) by people who keep interjecting about "fairness". Economics isn't about what's fair, its about what works; you have to shoehorn "fairness" in where you can. While that task might be easier in a game world, at the same time it's harder, too, because in the game world people can do what they can't (easily) in real life: leave.

=HT=Ingram · Dec 28, 2006, 08:58 PM // 20:58

leprekan I don't give a FLYING FIG. I don't need gold in this game to enjoy it. I have had a max of 600K in my character playing legitimately. And I spent it on guild services... Big deal... When I play I average 15K a day just from general adventuring, and I turn around and spend that at NPCs for 5k inscription weapons, or gaining collector Items. Those are ALL that is required in this game. Your imaginary crystalline crap can eat itself for all I care. I have given away 3 of them in the past from wins in HoH to guildies that were begging me for them (I'm sure they just turned around and resold them but who cares). They are not that big a deal at all to someone that knows how to play GUILD WARS. You seem to know how to play INFLATION MARKET! If I resorted to that crap for entertainment I would blow my head off.

And to clarify for those that think I am ignoring the OP, The point is it doesn't matter the market crashed. it was never a big deal to begin with, no one needed anything that those kinds of players had high prices on to begin with. And even more so it was pathetic cause anyone can get one with a little time and effort and a end game or PvP character. So the fact that these "people", for want of a better word, do this for enjoyment is sickening.

Its not that its even that bad a thing really, if they would stick to the areas of the game designated for them, IE Trade channels and Trade party searches. But NOO, they not only have to make use of exploits and Bots to farm items, Or worse resell gold to gaming indexes, but they have to stick their big fat heads in every channel making normal interactions for PUGs impossible. Thats why the people that actually PLAY this great game are overjoyed that they are now upset they have no good things to exploit anymore. Its never been about getting stuff cheap we could always do that with collectors and Weaponsmith NPCs. ALWAYS from day one. Its just now these "PEOPLE" can't peddle their wares for high prices anymore to further their Gold reselling empires. and that my friends is worth it.

cloudbunny · Dec 29, 2006, 01:21 AM // 01:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ansgar Two Hand

In my opinion, one of the best things about GW is that a *very* casual gamer can play through it without being put at a severe functional disadvantage in PvE. Collector weapons and armor and dropped items can carry you through the game

That is exactly one of the main reasons why I bought GW!!
I tried play Diablo for a while once, but got put down by the insane difference between super-farmers with uberweapons and myself carrying only what I picked up along the road. I certainly do not want to play that kind of game again.

Can't say I care much about the economy. Some things go up some things go down. For me it not a big difference if I spend my few gold coins on runes, skills, gold weapons or give it to friends (well, in fact the latter is much more rewarding in my opinion :-) ). It's gold and it does no good in the storage!

Regards,
Cloudbunny

leprekan · Dec 29, 2006, 01:21 AM // 01:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by =HT=Ingram

leprekan I don't give a FLYING FIG. I don't need gold in this game to enjoy it. I have had a max of 600K in my character playing legitimately. And I spent it on guild services... Big deal... When I play I average 15K a day just from general adventuring, and I turn around and spend that at NPCs for 5k inscription weapons, or gaining collector Items. Those are ALL that is required in this game. Your imaginary crystalline crap can eat itself for all I care. I have given away 3 of them in the past from wins in HoH to guildies that were begging me for them (I'm sure they just turned around and resold them but who cares). They are not that big a deal at all to someone that knows how to play GUILD WARS. You seem to know how to play INFLATION MARKET! If I resorted to that crap for entertainment I would blow my head off.

Only thing worse than a wannabe Ethug is one that is in his 30s. Judging by your tantrum my post was dead on.

Ansgar,
I planned a longer response but my neighbor has a dog. BBL